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PostSubject: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Wed May 11, 2011 11:57 am

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Last edited by cinik on Sun May 15, 2011 7:31 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Thu May 12, 2011 9:17 pm

Oh, well you know, people don't usually just dash in randomly, they dash in when you're vulnerable. The character's position in the list isn't based on how a newer player would use them, but a more experienced one. Think about this, you know about Rasengan-Spammers, and you know they're going to do it, so then why do you still get hit by their Rasengans?
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Thu May 12, 2011 9:29 pm

i dont get hit by their rasengans because there so predictable =/ so i dunno what to say when your vulnerable your making it sound like now that all you can do with hidan is c dash u2 which is correct besides his air combo. and what do you mean when there vulnerable when a person is attacking if you dash you will get hit and unless your facing a very bad player hidan is very hard to win with.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Thu May 12, 2011 9:36 pm

Ending lag, you are vulnerable. KnJ'd, you are vulnerable. Throw some shuriken, you are vulnerable.

I'm not saying Hidan is a great character, I'm just explaining to you that Sniper's information was not wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Thu May 12, 2011 9:45 pm

now you are saying that you need to rely on u2 and ill say it again your opponent must be really bad to get c dashed u2 a ton of times against a player with common sense and knows the game mechanics its very hard to win with hidan he should be on the 2nd bottom of the d tier and snipers dash within a combo info was wrong you can't dash in between combos and hidans combos are really bad and combos are something that you want to avoid anyways because of the broken knj system
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Thu May 12, 2011 10:15 pm

Characters are judged on their worth. Just because a certain support can give him awesome options doesn't mean he has awesome options.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Thu May 12, 2011 10:32 pm

Crazyjay485 wrote:
... snipers dash within a combo info was wrong you can't dash in between combos and hidans combos are really bad and combos are something that you want to avoid anyways because of the broken knj system

You can air dash or c.dash in combo's, as long as you have controlled button pressing. Meaning, you're not just mashing the B/O button.

Also, try to explain why characters are better than others. If you want Hidan to be second last in D Tier, then give reasons as to why Taka Sasuke is better than him. Just saying he should be lowered and telling us his downsides seems incomplete.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Thu May 12, 2011 10:36 pm

taka sasuke refer to page 1 i gave info there on y he should be 2nd top of d tier and y orochimaru should be 1st top
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Thu May 12, 2011 10:52 pm

I see. Well then, you'll have to wait for Sniperworm to get back to you with his rebuttal. I was just explaining how his information was correct.

I would have to agree though, I feel like Taka Sasuke should be a bit higher up. Maybe Cinik put him that low because he holds on a grudge against him or something. :D lol
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Fri May 13, 2011 7:07 am

Now, while I've never been the best at arguing or anything like that, I really do think that Pain should be at the top of B tier or even at the bottom of A tier.

Why? It's because his U2 is spammable, you can move after you've used it.
Shinra Tensei or U1 blocks everything.

Grab is... horrible, but it works to U2 > Grab sometimes against opponents who don't know the trick.
Up combo is fast, hard to sub and does devastating damage.

Awakening might not be the best, but to use Shinra Tensei without consuming too much chakra is a turtles best friend (IMO).

Tilt doesn't have strikeback, but does a lot of damage in itself.
And if Pain does need strike backs he's got 2 tags, shinra tensei and several combos to cause it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Fri May 13, 2011 3:33 pm

So you're saying he's better than Ino?
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Fri May 13, 2011 4:01 pm

Lmao N9TR is better than Sage.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Fri May 13, 2011 6:42 pm

@Crazyjay485 - For clarification, I'm going to point out that there are two kinds of dashes in this game: normal dash and chakra dash. You cannot chakra dash during a combo, but you can normal dash. Hidan's U2 combos after his normal dash. My point behind this is that Hidan can potentially land his U2 (from a short combo) if he hits you with any of the following: normal attack, tilt, dash, chakra dash. He can situationally hit you with his U2 if he lands a defense-down tag (he has to be close to you), chakra shuriken (balanced shika w/ support drive), or air attack (needs a launcher type support, must only do first attack into support, land, chase air tech and U2).

I'm not sure why you think my info is irrelevant (judging from your posts, it doesn't seem like you were aware of most of what I posted, which makes it very relevant), but it's certainly not wrong.

With that being said, I never said that Hidan was good. C tier is not good. I just think that Hidan fishing for U2 is better than anything Choji or the rest of D tier has. He's essentially the low tier version of Shika.

HARM wrote:
Characters are judged on their worth. Just because a certain support can give him awesome options doesn't mean he has awesome options.

I actually disagree with this. Unless this is a singles tier list (in which case there should be a separate one for teams), I think it is important to point out when a support is more effective for a character than the typical character. Especially when we are talking about balanced Shikamaru, which is one of (if not the most) influential supports in the game). Awesome options with a support isn't much different than having awesome options, all it does is limit who you can pick as your supports (but why wouldn't you pick the supports that give you awesome options?).

I also think it should be a factor in determining tier placement because this list should assume that players are playing at the highest level possible. This not only means during the match; they should also be picking the best supports that they can before the match even starts.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Fri May 13, 2011 6:57 pm

if hidan's u2 after an air dash is possiple it will need really good timing so its really not soomething some1 can rely on
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Fri May 13, 2011 7:05 pm

sniperworm wrote:


HARM wrote:
Characters are judged on their worth. Just because a certain support can give him awesome options doesn't mean he has awesome options.

I actually disagree with this. Unless this is a singles tier list (in which case there should be a separate one for teams), I think it is important to point out when a support is more effective for a character than the typical character. Especially when we are talking about balanced Shikamaru, which is one of (if not the most) influential supports in the game). Awesome options with a support isn't much different than having awesome options, all it does is limit who you can pick as your supports (but why wouldn't you pick the supports that give you awesome options?).

I also think it should be a factor in determining tier placement because this list should assume that players are playing at the highest level possible. This not only means during the match; they should also be picking the best supports that they can before the match even starts.

I'm not saying supports have no part of the conversation. But it also depends on how strong a characters worth is as character. A move that needs support to cover it should almost never be considered better than a move that doesn't need support to be safe.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Fri May 13, 2011 7:10 pm

list updated a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Fri May 13, 2011 7:43 pm

To bump Hidan up, you're going to have to explain why is Hidan better than the characters he'll be above of.

For example, Yamato is currently over Hidan.

Better U1= Yamato
Better U2= Hidan
Better tilt= Yamato
Better items= Yamato
Better combos= Hidan
SB punishment= Yamato (can SB loop with tilt/U1/bomb and can also U2 SB)
Better grab= Hidan (is faster and neither cause SB)

They both have basically the same kunai and awakening.
Yamato wins.

About Pain, he should stay where he is, but they forgot to mention his awesome c. kunai which is hard to dodge so he could just make damage long range fight while spamming supports and then punishing a c. dash with the air-U1.
But Ino still has a better c. kunai, tilt and can U2 off SB with less effort.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Sat May 14, 2011 12:09 am

HARM wrote:
I'm not saying supports have no part of the conversation. But it also depends on how strong a characters worth is as character. A move that needs support to cover it should almost never be considered better than a move that doesn't need support to be safe.

I agree with you. However, what you're describing is quite what I am saying. I'm not talking about using supports to cover lag. I'm talking about using specific supports to augment specific strategies that an individual character has. For example, not all characters benefit equally from balanced Shikamaru. Therefore, since Hidan benefits greatly from it, I feel that it is an important consideration for his tier placement.

Ziiko wrote:
To bump Hidan up, you're going to have to explain why is Hidan better than the characters he'll be above of.

For example, Yamato is currently over Hidan.

Better U1= Yamato
Better U2= Hidan
Better tilt= Yamato
Better items= Yamato
Better combos= Hidan
SB punishment= Yamato (can SB loop with tilt/U1/bomb and can also U2 SB)
Better grab= Hidan (is faster and neither cause SB)

They both have basically the same kunai and awakening.
Yamato wins.

A fair statement (that to bump up a character I need to explain why the character is better than those that he will be bypassing).

I agree with your assessment of the individual components, but not all moves are created equal (therefore, not all are equally important). For example, Yamato's better U1 is irrelevant in my eyes because neither move is particularly useful. The only notable thing about Yamato's U1 is that it OTGs (for minimal damage) and it has exceptionally high priority. However, it is much to slow, laggy, and has no tracking making it next to useless in general.

More importantly though, in my eyes, is to see how a character's moves can be used together in an actual match. What can Yamato do from far away? Jump around and throw shuriken. What can Hidan do from far away? Jump around and throw shuriken. They have identical shuriken, so they are the same. What can Yamato do up close? Do a combo or tilt to push them away. What can Hidan do up close? He can do a combo or go for a throw. Realistically, Yamato's only way of dealing damage is to get a strikeback, then land his U2. Hidan, on the other hand, can easily land his U2 off combos or punishes (in addition to strikebacks). He can also use his throw as a punish to deal damage or to stop an opponent from just holding block (whereas Yamato's only hope of getting through a blocking opponent is with supports, an option also available to Hidan). So although Yamato has better moves overall, I don't think he is a more effective character. He lacks a way to open up the opponent, he lacks a way to punish his opponent, and he lacks the tools to effectively outcamp his opponent (hence why he is D tier). At least Hidan can punish people if he gets an opening, and he's one of the best in the game at doing so. So that in itself, to me, makes him better than Yamato.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Sat May 14, 2011 12:20 am

y do you keep on going on that he can u2 in the middle of a combo ive never seen it done with hidan and i only did it once with shika maru and his u2 has the fastest startup and his even needed really great timing. also hidan has easy to sub combos and also his u1 is worse then yamotoes even if both of theres u1s suck we are your placing them against each other so i think that you would have to consider which one is better even if there not that good. yamato is far more effective in battle then hidan is. and also you say he hidan works well with shika balance but so does yamato umad?
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Sat May 14, 2011 1:04 am

@Sniperworm: Exactly, a characters placement basically comes down to the options he has and how he can take away opponents options.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Sat May 14, 2011 3:33 am

jariya below killer bee y jariya is a much better character
im gonna do the thing ziiko did to compare the characters :p
combos-jiraiya for sure his combos are hard to sub and killer bee only has a better air combo and killer bees combos are very easy to sub

u1-i would think that jiraiya has the better u1 even though they both have slow startups jiraiya has a cutscene u1 while killer bee does not which leaves possibilty for knj

u2-jiraiya for sure he has invinsibilty and less ending lag

items-jiraiya wins again because he has bombs which can lead to sb u2

tilt-killer bee for sure jiraiya has a huge startup lag and bee's tilt is his best move

sb punishment- jiraiya wins yet again he can u1 and u2 off sb and he can also tilt while killer bee can only do u2 and possibly his air combo

better grab- bee he cause sb and has a longer reach

jiraiya wins i also think that jiraiya should be moved to the top of the c tier while deidara goes down below him because jiraiya has better options then deidara
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Sat May 14, 2011 6:33 am

i'd like to propose that suigetsu be moved above sai. sui has bombs which can cause SB, sui's tilt can also cause SB and is two hits as opposed to sai's tilt which has multiple hits and is easy to sub. although sai's grab has the longer range sui's grab is faster. his u2 is faster than sai's and his awakening is better because instead of just a powered up version of the same character his combo's and tilt become more deadly (especially the water dash at the end of the combo) and can frighten even a skilled player.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Sat May 14, 2011 7:09 pm

Crazyjay485 wrote:
jiraiya wins i also think that jiraiya should be moved to the top of the c tier while deidara goes down below him because jiraiya has better options then deidara

I agree that Jiraiya is better than killerbee eventhough you forgot to mention KB's awesome awakening but I'll have to disagree with Deidara.

Deidara is far better, He has long ranged projectiles and kcombos.
-His U1 has insane tracking hits otg and causes SB.
-He teams up with the akatsuki.
-His air k combo punishes c. dashers
-Has a better air combo
-has better c. kunai
-Has kcombos
-Can grab/U2 off SB with ease. (Jiraiya has a hard time U2'ing off SB unlike KB or Dei. He's better off chaining U1's)
-Can SB loop with his air k combo
-Can U3 after a grab.
-Has a better awakening. (Stay close, c. kunai spam until you break the shield and then stomp on them)

All I can think of Jiraiya having better are his ground combos and items because he has bombs and chakra boost.
But that's probably it.

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@Sniper worm- even without the U1's, Yamato ends up having a better moveset. Hidan is more vulnerable for a longer time if he misses his U1 or gets KNJ'ed.

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@Shadow- The thing with Sai are his kunais, he can be a long ranged turtle because his standard kunai travel really fast and are hard to notice, which are used to cancel opp's supports and jutsu startups. Then comes his c. kunai which are some ink pigeons with faster and better tracking than Shino's bugs, making them hard to dodge. Forcing opp to KNJ (lose chakra) or block (get chip damage).

Sai's grab and U1 are obviously better. And he can also U2 off SB. But I'm not sure if these attributes make Sai better than Sui.
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PostSubject: Re: The Official UNS2 Tier List   The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 Clock14Sun May 15, 2011 5:59 pm

@Ziiko - I believe you're taking away the wrong thing from my previous post. What I meant was simply that although Yamato's options overall are better, Hidan's few strong options are more effective than Yamato's many bad options (which just so happen to be better than Hidan's worse options). I'm not arguing with your basic premise that Yamato's moves are generally better than Hidan's. I'm just saying that having a bunch of moves that are bad instead of terrible is not better than having a few moves that are actually good.

Crazyjay485 wrote:
y do you keep on going on that he can u2 in the middle of a combo ive never seen it done with hidan and i only did it once with shika maru and his u2 has the fastest startup and his even needed really great timing. also hidan has easy to sub combos and also his u1 is worse then yamotoes even if both of theres u1s suck we are your placing them against each other so i think that you would have to consider which one is better even if there not that good. yamato is far more effective in battle then hidan is. and also you say he hidan works well with shika balance but so does yamato The Official UNS2 Tier List - Page 2 55970

Crazyjay, why do you keep saying that you've never seen it done every time I mention it? Why don't you go and try it since I explain exactly how to do it? As a player of many different fighting games, I can assure you that the timing isn't even that strict (it's definitely not a 1 or 2 frame link). Shika's dash to U2 is super easy and Hidan's is somewhere between easy and average in difficulty.

For your reference, OO (XX) U2 is an easy version you can do with Hidan. If you still can't do it, then let me know and I'll see if I can get it recorded and uploaded next weekend.

Also, I'm well aware that Yamato can use balanced Shika very well. I never used that as an advantage in my comparison of Yamato and Hidan. I noted that the two have the same shuriken, which means that they both are good with balanced Shika.
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